The almost-unedited IRC transcript from the first Midgard meeting. (22nd Jul. 1999)

16:57:07 <bergie> Hmm... our network connection is hiccupping a bit, so don't be confused if we get disconnected. :-(
16:58:47 <bergie> Ok, 15:00 GMT now.
17:00:51 <bergie> Jukka is still writing some email, so lets wait for him before we begin...
17:01:55 <bergie> BTW. The Midgard-PHP patch for PHP 3.0.11 is now available on the Midgard Web site.
17:02:10 <is> it's 3:08 ..
17:05:44 <hukka> Hiho!
17:06:01 <bergie> Ok, shall we begin?
17:06:12 <yo>
17:06:23 <hukka> Yeah, let's go!
17:06:43 <bergie> I just threw a reminder email to Midgard mailing list, and if more people are coming from there, they can catch up then...
17:07:09 *** irc (emile@boha.uci.kun.nl) has joined #midgard
17:07:31 <bergie> Hi, emile!
17:07:45 <hukka> The reason for calling together this meeting is that as Midgard now is becoming a more and more steady and usable platform, we two alone won't be able to do everything with Midgard.
17:07:55 <irc> He, Hi. I was wondering wether this thing was on :)
17:08:10 <irc> Oh boy, and have I got a load of things I want to have/do
17:08:34 *** Offering DCC CHAT to bergie
17:08:34 <bergie> We are just beginning.
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17:09:02 <irc> Right, which means this is the time to think about how to incorporate aal the functionality
17:09:11 <irc> Is there a roadmap/design available?
17:09:16 <hukka> So I'd like to introduce new people to the Midgard internals and tell a bit about what's going on with the development.
17:09:59 <hukka> The current roadmap is at http://www.midgard-project.org/article/997.html
17:10:24 <irc> Yes, the 'vision statement'. What I would need to get started is a peek inside.
17:10:54 <bergie> Well, that is why we have this meeting here, isn't it? ;-)
17:11:09 <irc> OK, colour me anxious to get started :)
17:12:28 <hukka> Yep, perhaps we'll start this by discussing a bit about what me and Henri think about the long term goals (a year =) of Midgard and then go to more details about how everything could be implemented and who can do what.
17:12:58 <irc> FBM
17:12:59 <hukka> Of course everyone may (and should) give comments and new ideas.
17:13:43 <bergie> At the moment Midgard is still pretty much what it has been all a long - a tool for our own Web building needs.
17:14:27 <bergie> But by getting also others to work on it and give ideas for future developments, we easily improve it to work in many more general cases.
17:16:09 <hukka> The long term vision is to make Midgard a central storage and processing engine for a number of different data objects that can be accessed over the network through web and a number of other standard means.
17:16:10 <bergie> We have some ideas on where Midgard could go (things like CORBA support for interaction with desktop clients and backend applications and WAP/PIM functionalities), but extending the system to also other areas fill be beneficial to all in Midgard community.
17:16:57 <Milosch> imho, would be heavily used if workable as a db interface designer, for intranet sites...
17:17:12 <bipo> hi all ... is this "meeting" only supposed for midgard-developers or can ordinary users also ask some questions/get awnsers for some problems ?
17:17:54 <irc> I too want to use it for an intranet server project. Midgard covers a lot of great things that I need, but not all, currently
17:17:55 <bergie> You can also ask questions about Midgard's usage here, but of course the main focus will be on Midgard development. The Midgard mailing list is also a good forum for getting help.
17:18:49 <bergie> We are actually running our employer's corporate intranet with Midgard, but then again it was easy for us to customize Midgard to fill our needs in the task.
17:19:14 <bipo> it should be a good forum for getting help ... but i sent a mail a frew days ago and got no awnser
17:19:22 <irc> Hukka, Bergie, how do you want this discussion? Do you first want to explain how the internals work? Or should I start whining about my needs now and take that as an angle :) ?
17:19:25 <bipo> i even send it to jukka - no awnser ...
17:20:20 <hukka> Sorry for not answering yet. I was sick for the last two days, and the email's are just drowning me... I'll get around to answer the mail, but not immediately... :-(
17:21:10 <bipo> ok ... that's all i wanted
17:21:11 <bergie> bipo: it might have been missed out. There are mostly only the two of us (Jukka and I) answering questions, and we were very much swamped with email after the 1.1 release.
17:21:16 <bipo> thanks for your help :)
17:21:59 <bipo> no prob ... i just wanted to know if there's a chance getting awnser
17:22:10 <hukka> Emile (and everybody else too): Please state your whishes, it would be good to know also other opinions on what should be done.
17:22:28 *** Aldaron (alokas@mb-u02ip052.mbnet.fi) has joined #midgard
17:22:37 <Aldaron> Agh, finally here
17:22:41 <bergie> Greetings, Alokas!
17:22:45 *** NickG (nick@odin.easysoft.com) has joined #midgard
17:22:47 <irc> Ha! Here we go: I need to know about CGI integration, access control (per page/section), and file upload
17:23:04 <Aldaron> b: ikkehirvi pärkele.
17:23:06 <hukka> Let's then try to combine all of the wishes to a clearer vision statement and development plan.
17:23:39 <Milosch> odbc is good, but I suppose that a mysql interface ala phpMyAdmin would be a nice module to aid in setup, or at least give show table and select capability on a particular db
17:24:06 <bergie> irc: Access control for pages/sections and file uploading are both already implemented quite nicely (of course there are still things to improve), and CGI integration depends on what you need.
17:24:41 <irc> Oh? Must have missed that. I only found a way to secure a whole site (al a admin site).
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17:25:09 <hukka> I've myself only used the mysql command line tools to administer the databases. Presenting phpMyAdmin as a low level management tool for the database might be a good idea.
17:25:35 <bipo> so, i'm not disturbing you any longer ... cya & thx
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17:25:42 <Milosch> hukka: I was thinking insofar as db access for a host within midgard
17:26:29 <irc> Re: CGI: Is there a way to run CGI scripts from a midgardized site?
17:26:37 <hukka> OK, currently Midgard does not lend itself very well to general SQL queries as it tries to hide the database structures beneath the function interface...
17:26:56 <Milosch> hukka: right... which is nice for me ;)
17:27:22 <bergie> irc: Yes, it is. Having sites midgardized doesn't remove the possibility to have normal files and CGI scripts there.
17:27:47 <Milosch> hukka: jsut to be sure I am clear, the midgard host is on the midgard db, this host uses another db for which simple tools would be nice
17:28:27 <irc> OK. Re: Access control: where in the admin site would I specify what user has access to a specific section?
17:28:43 <hukka> irc: You can require authentication on a subdirectory by setting the authentication:required setting for a page record.
17:29:18 <irc> Yes, but how to specify only user X and group Y may enter?
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17:29:59 <bergie> irc: If you want to limit some authenticated areas to certain users or groups, you can do it as a check in the code-init element (you have to write it in PHP/Midgard at the moment).
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17:30:27 <hukka> Currently only with PHP code (mgd_list_memberships($midgard->user)), but it would be quite easy to modify the Midgard access control code to allow limiting access to specific groups.
17:30:50 <irc> OK, I'll look into it. Re: uploads: what I meant was not uploading of entire files, but HTML snippets for the template mech.
17:31:22 <hukka> Currently the authentication:required setting is only a flag, but it could easily be changed to be the ID number of a group (or 0 if authentication not required).
17:32:24 <bergie> irc: that kind of file uploading would require some handling of the files in Midgard/PHP.
17:32:48 <hukka> Milosch: Using the Midgard interface to access another db than the midgard db could be a bit troublesome. I'd believe using the standard PHP database functions would be enough.
17:33:26 <irc> Correct. As I have mentionened on the list earlier: my users are very non-tech. They must be able to use WYSIWYG tools, or they'll panic :)
17:34:02 <hukka> However I've though about a generic midgard functions (mgd_get, mgd_list, mgd_create, ...) for user-defined tables within the Midgard database.
17:34:42 <domi> irc: you can also educate them, i think there no people so stupid that they can't learn a little step by step process
17:34:43 <bergie> Ok. If you only need simple text, then using the Midgard text parser might be enough. I've seen very nontechinical people learn it in minutes. Of course, if you need more complex layouting, then WYSIWYG is what you need.
17:35:30 <irc> You obviously haven't met my userbase :)
17:35:50 <bergie> irc: ;-)
17:35:58 <domi> irc: :o)
17:35:59 <hukka> It could be also relatively easy to port a system like phpMyAdmin to work on top of Midgard. It would still be just PHP...
17:36:44 <irc> Education would indeed solve the problem. I must face the fact that many of my users will be unwilling, though :(
17:37:08 <bergie> irc: What kind of WYSIWYG tool are you looking for, FrontPage? Word? Handling HTML files wouldn't bee too complex, I guess.
17:37:27 <hukka> Let's backtrack a bit. Irc and Bergie, you're still talking about file upload?
17:38:27 <irc> I would say any tool that can spit out HTML and upload it via HTTP put.
17:38:58 <domi> irc: if you present the things in a favorable fashion, they could be more interested, but yeah, it could be quite tricky :o))
17:39:24 <hukka> We'd have a user that uses FrontPage to create a HTML file and to upload it to the server. She'd want the page to then be available on the net?
17:39:30 <bergie> irc: Ok, so something like Communicator's editor? I believe adding functionality like this will require some work in Midgard's internals, but will help many people struggling with the same problem.
17:39:43 <hukka> Embedded in a Midgardized site style?
17:40:10 <domi> wouldn't webdav fullfill the need ? any way of doing a webdav module for midgard ?
17:40:21 <bergie> I used to do this with FrontPage and SSI-based templates in pre-Midgard days, but it required some editing by hand.
17:40:41 <bergie> webdav sounds very interesting, but we haven't yet had time to take a look at it.
17:41:08 <irc> Yep. What I was thinking is 3 'kinds' of upload: 1. Content to be embedded in a template. For this you can use the title and the body of the upload. 2. Master template, use the entire upload, or 3. template snippet, use only the body.
17:41:31 <irc> Yep in reaction to embedding, BTW
17:42:15 <hukka> OK, the type 1 upload should be relatively easy to implement.
17:43:23 <hukka> We'll need a HTML parser (perhaps the xml parser of php could do) that parses the uploaded document. Then we'd just feed the data into a page or an article record.
17:43:30 <domi> irc: you can also create some editing interface, where they just fill in the holes with the text
17:43:48 <domi> which integrate itself into template that knowledged people design
17:44:25 <domi> either they type directly in the form, or they do cut'n'paste
17:44:42 <domi> I've got somethin like that working with really non-technical people
17:44:42 <bergie> domi: that is what we are doing with our Intranet right now.
17:46:15 <hukka> The only real limitation of the form approach is that you don't have any wysiwyg formatting capabilities. (Is that good or bad? ;-)
17:52:22 *** Disconnected.
17:52:26 *** Connected. Now logging in..
17:52:38 <Aldaron> Haha ;-).
17:53:01 <hukka> Ho, our connection breaks sometimes...
17:53:13 <bergie> Damn, our ISP is hiccupping again. Hopefully this stays online from now on...
17:53:14 <Aldaron> hukka: Up again?
17:53:25 <Aldaron> Ah, ok =).
17:53:32 <bergie> Where were we?
17:53:50 <irc> Re: ugly HTML: yes, but my employer has little interest in how the HTML looks, just how it renders in IE and NN latest versions. We run an intranet, so we can 'force' our users to a certain version.
17:54:32 <hukka> Uh, sounds bad... =(
17:54:39 <bergie> BTW. emile's RPMs are now available at http://www.midgard-project.org/person/1007.html
17:54:55 <hukka> Thanks, Emile!
17:55:14 <bergie> emile: will you announce them on the list?
17:55:29 <domi> irc: I meant ugly result :) (neither good on IE, NN either Win or Linux) because of each passing it through it's beloved wysiwyg tool and messing with the whole thing
17:55:36 <irc> Darn, that's fast. They were checked in 2 minutes ago :) Yes, I'll announce.
17:55:44 <bergie> Oops... wrong URL, correct one here: http://www.midgard-project.org/article/1095.html
17:57:32 <Aldaron> I'll have to go. Happy midgarding ;-).
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17:58:18 <bergie> BTW. Aldaron (Jonni Lehtiranta) is our FAQ maintainer.
17:59:26 <hukka> About the FAQ, I just updated bits and pieces there. It should now be more or less accurate for the 1.1 series.
17:59:42 <irc> Re: ugly HTML: OK, but that's a tunable process, and not necessarily done better by having the computer-phobic type in straight HTML in a textarea.
17:59:45 <bergie> Very good. Jonni also promised to go through it soon.
18:00:00 <domi> regarding IRC meeting like this, wouldn't it be wise of putting an irc.midgard-project.org that points to irc.openprojects ? because I had to think twice before thinking about openprojects :o)
18:00:00 <bergie> irc: that is true.
18:00:25 <bergie> domi: We'll think about it. I've never set up an IRC server, tho'
18:00:29 <domi> irc: yes, just don't let them type HTML :)
18:00:50 <domi> (I know it's a little problematic when you nedd tables ;o)
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18:01:28 <hukka> Re: ugly HTML: letting dummy users directly edit the HTML is always a bit problematic...
18:01:48 <domi> bergie: no need for the server itself, just having a DNS record that has a cnam to irc.openprojects.net
18:02:02 *** mauh (muhlig@uranos.cto.us.edu.pl) has joined #midgard
18:02:08 <bergie> But anyhow, I like the WebDAV idea. If someone just had time to work on supporting it in Midgard...
18:02:25 <hukka> perhaps the files should be run through a validator and then through some kind of a cleanup process... =) Just a wild idea...
18:04:34 <hukka> Are there any decent WebDAV clients around?
18:04:42 <irc> Re: ugly..: But that's what I'm looking at. I want to administer the site and help with the templates, but let the users handle the content.
18:04:54 <domi> hukka: IE5 does it I think
18:05:09 <irc> Re: webdav: only IE.latest I believe. And some from w3.org.
18:05:46 <hukka> OK, that's not top priority then, but if someone is interested, adding DAV support for Midgard might be interesting.
18:06:50 <irc> DAV: mainly adds versioning and locking control
18:06:58 <domi> hukka: I think there was something discussed about it on the PHP lists also...
18:07:38 <hukka> irc: Re: ugly HTML: Do you need to allow your users to edit the style elements also? Is it enough if they may only edit the content?
18:08:12 <irc> Content would be sufficient, Templates would be a big plus.
18:08:34 <domi> irc: and what sort of content would they have to edit ?
18:09:04 <domi> quite rigid (like says a newletter, articles) or completely free form ?
18:09:39 <irc> Free form, in principle, although the template itself may offer restrictions, size-wise.
18:10:00 <hukka> I'm trying to follow the discussions on the PHP lists but I never have enough time... Wish there were a summary service like kernel traffic for the PHP lists.
18:10:34 <irc> My main target would be, ATM, to ensure that the site maintains a non-optional common look & feel (menus and stuff)
18:10:41 <domi> yes or MWS (not sure of the initials of the Midgard Weekly thing :o)
18:11:31 <bergie> BTW. isn't there already some kind of WebDAV module for Apache. If some of you want to take the project checking that out might be a good starting point.
18:12:20 <irc> Yes, there is a DAV module available. To do the things I want, though, you'ld have to act immediately after the upload to strip it and put it in the DB
18:13:01 <bergie> irc: I think the module would need some hacking to make it Midgard-aware, but it might still be worth trying
18:13:35 <irc> Definately, *if* the module offers http put. Not much sense otherwise, if no client supports DAV, right?
18:14:18 <hukka> Re: ugly...: Hmm, dropping HTML flow content from the uploaded files inside a style template could be enough. We'd need a some soft of a validator though.
18:14:23 <bergie> irc: Right. But you can support HTTP put to some extent on Midgard already now, AFAIK
18:15:11 <hukka> DAV: I'd believe that the existing DAV modules do support HTTP PUT. Also PHP does that.
18:15:38 <irc> You mean the file uploads (like the attachments)? Yes, that would work too. But having PUT work you could just upload to the 'current' spot without having to go to the admin site or having a browse field on every page
18:15:38 <bergie> If we had a simple SGML/XML parser in Midgard it should be easy enough to rip the content of the uploaded file to pieces that can be inserted to the Article table.
18:16:19 <irc> That would be simple. Plenty parsers around.
18:16:38 <domi> bergie: php already integrate an xml parser I beleive
18:17:11 <hukka> irc: No, I mean real HTTP PUT, see http://www.php.net/manual/features.file-upload.put-method.php3.
18:17:40 <bergie> domi: I didn't know that. Jukka has been talking of using GNOME's parser for it, but f PHP already has one...
18:17:47 <domi> any news about php4/midgard cohabitation ?
18:18:07 <domi> bergie: I think they link against expat
18:18:08 <bergie> Jukka was sick for the last two days so we haven't even downloaded the PHP4 beta yet.
18:18:27 <bergie> domi: ok, expat sounds good.
18:19:04 <irc> Re: HTTP PUT in PHP: looks good, but it needs the page to be 'upload aware'. <whine>And I want the access control to only allow it to certain users at certain places</whine> :)
18:19:42 <bergie> irc: Jukka can send you some code examples on the access control after this meeting.
18:20:03 <hukka> Not yet. I'd first need to contact the PHP team with the Midgard-PHP patch and ask if the Midgard parts could be merged to the PHP3 code tree. Then we could easily move up to PHP4.
18:20:11 <bergie> BTW. any volunteers for the WebDAV project?
18:20:30 <irc> Cool. I'll draft my ideas about access control over the weekend, and put it on the mailing list.
18:20:58 <irc> I'll volunteer for the DAV stuff, but mainly to look into it. I can't plan much time (yet) for implementation.
18:21:09 <hukka> irc: Yes, you could do a style or page element that checks whether ther request is a HTTP PUT and act's accordingly.
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18:21:55 <bergie> The Web site for mod_dav is at http://www.webdav.org/mod_dav/
18:22:03 <irc> That would work, but I want the access to the access control quite restricted
18:22:24 <hukka> Great! At first we'd really only need some kind of a vision of how the DAV and Midgard systems would interface. After that we can think about the implementation.
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18:23:31 <hukka> irc: The style element could check the authentication of the user. Can we require authentication from all users or would only PUT request need to be authenticated?
18:24:19 <irc> In my case, I would have to be able to mix-n-match: open GET, restricted PUT, and tightly restricted who gets to set the policy (me)
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18:25:04 <irc> And parts closed GET, too
18:25:09 <hukka> OK, that might require minor changes to the mod_midgard code, but won't be a problem.
18:25:54 <irc> Really? Great. Since I'm the one with the big demands, I'll hapilly help where possible/necessary.
18:28:30 <hukka> Yes. I'll do an initial example of the required style element and send the code to you. If you could specify your access control needs a bit more, then we could go on implementing them. Perhaps we'll then release 1.1.2 with the changes you need.
18:29:08 <domi> you should have a look also at how Zope have integrated DAV support into their tool
18:29:10 <bergie> Is there anything else that should go to 1.1.2? Jukka, you mentioned some slight but in midgard-php?
18:29:16 <irc> Perfect. If you can mail me what you have on access control ATM, I'll draft out what I need/would deem cool for midgard over the weekend
18:29:17 <domi> to pick some ideas :o)
18:30:35 <hukka> irc: OK, we can work this thing together from this on. I'll mail you already this evening.
18:31:38 <hukka> 1.1.2: The release could mainly use a few bug fixes (minor ones) and still some updating of the Admin site. Mainly the Host and Style administration tools could need to be updated.
18:31:39 <irc> Fun. Hey, guys (i assume), great thing we're working on here. Gotta dash!
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18:32:49 <bergie> True. They are still in pretty much the same shape as they were in 1.0.0. Some UI improvements could be in order - at least to get them match with the new Group and Topic admins.
18:33:51 <bergie> Ok, now... any other ideas people want to throw around?
18:35:46 <domi> I wondered if midgard was only php specific or is it bound to apache to ?
18:36:04 <hukka> Yes, bound to both of them...
18:36:37 <bergie> BTW. We were contacted today by people from the unixODBC project (http://www.unixodbc.org), who are also making an Open Source database connectivity system. We'll see what will come out of that one...
18:36:38 <domi> if/when php is supported on other servers (says roxen) you couldn't have direct midgard support ?
18:37:30 <hukka> About 1.2: the roadmap says late july with a number of nice new features. Let's  see what we'll be able to fit in...
18:38:05 <hukka> domi: No, mainly the mod_midgard part is heavily dependent of Apache (it's an Apache module...)
18:38:46 <hukka> One would need to implement the mod_midgard functionality for another server in order to port Midgard...
18:39:13 <hukka> 1.2: We'll probably get working ODBC support next week.
18:45:58 <hukka> 1.2: User preferences will be a nice small addition.
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18:47:09 <jpa> Hi! About access restrictions, I think we must add one level of description. We have groups and users. And we restrict access by group (or user). But when you retrieve data from an application, you can have access to a small part of the tool, like firstname, lastname, but not for salary! For an application you can some groups, for a user some rights, the restriction is group (auth) x right (appli).
18:47:12 <hukka> Huh, back here...
18:47:15 <domi> berg: nope :)
18:48:37 <hukka> jpa: In fact such fine-grained access control is already partially implemented in Midgard. You may specify the fields of a person record which are publicly accessible and which require authentication to be visible.
18:49:22 <hukka> However as page authentication, you can still only require an user to be authenticated, you cannot limit access based on user groups.
18:54:05 <hukka> I think we'll first change the authentication flags to group IDs. Then we might later implement more fine grained access control like the one in person records.
18:55:39 <hukka> The fine grained control still needs some thought though... Will we need to set the access groups for all records or should there be some grouping for the access control.
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18:58:37 <hukka> But hey, it's soon two hours since we started, and I think we'll soon close this meeting. If you still have something to say then please do so.
18:58:54 <hukka> Otherwise I'll try to summarise the results of this meeting.
19:00:22 <bergie> Yes... what we've been discussed today has been mostly of WebDAV and access control. Both are important topics.
19:00:27 <hukka> The last two hours have been very enjoyable. It's nice to see also other people show such interest in Midgard!
19:00:48 <bergie> If there is more you want to discuss about, just post to the list.
19:00:56 <hukka> It also seems that we're going to have a few new developers. =)
19:01:12 <bergie> I think we could call another meeting like this later on, too.
19:02:40 <hukka> Yes, definitely. I'd suggest that we'll get through the 1.2 release and then arrange another IRC meeting.
19:03:03 <bergie> Ok, so ODBC support and more access control stuff first...
19:03:09 <hukka> Perhaps we could do some smaller and more task-oriented meetings along the line.
19:03:25 <bergie> True. We hardly had time to discuss the internals of Midgard.
19:03:48 <hukka> Yes, I think those two will be the major new features of release 1.2.
19:04:50 <hukka> The internals can probably wait still a bit longer. As soon as people start really working on the Midgard cvs, we'd need to arrange another meeting just to discuss the code layout and other such matters.
19:05:27 <hukka> Before that the code in the CVS is still largely my responsibility.
19:05:42 <bergie> Then there is the Web site. We have now given access to two new volunteers, Emile and Mark. Any others who would like to work on it?
19:05:48 <Milosch> so, in conclusion? ;)
19:06:13 <Milosch> I am not much of a programmer, but I could help with mysql
19:06:52 <bergie> Ok. The database stuff is very important, esp. when we get the ODBC part working...
19:07:20 <hukka> We're going to need some instructions on using the MyODBC system for existing MySQL installations.
19:07:21 <Milosch> I can only offer a few hours a week at best, fulltime job and all
19:07:43 <Milosch> hukka: ime, that is slow, at least fromaccess
19:08:35 <hukka> Hmm, then perhaps we'll need to maintain direct MySQL access and use ODBC to support other databases...
19:08:42 <Milosch> at least at work with one db, a query on 5000 records took 20 minutes, vs 20 seconds max via web interface
19:08:54 <Milosch> not sure what was up with that ;)
19:09:19 <Milosch> are you talking from windows web servers?
19:09:52 <hukka> So we'll need some benchmarking before deciding whether to use direct MySQL connection or the ODBC driver.
19:10:07 <Milosch> ok
19:10:44 <Milosch> you said 'MyODBC' which implied apache/IIS on windows
19:11:02 <bergie> That should've been iODBC, I think
19:11:08 <Milosch> ah ok ;)
19:11:18 <Milosch> better ;)
19:12:11 <bergie> The iODBC system sounds quite nice. You can check it at http://www.iodbc.org Another option would be unixODBC (at http://www.unixodbc.org)
19:12:28 <hukka> Nope. iODBC is the ODBC client which uses the different ODBC drivers to access the databases. I tried the MyODBC driver with the iODBC client for some simple queries and it seemed to work just OK. The system was Linux, I compiled MyODBC from sources with no difficulties.
19:13:00 <Milosch> I have messed with iodbc only a little, with Applix, which was a real treat ;)
19:13:59 <bergie> Applix uses iODBC?
19:15:06 <Milosch> an old version I think
19:15:25 <bergie> Ok.
19:15:29 <Milosch> for client server for non-native support
19:15:47 <Milosch> iow, they have oracle and sybase built in iirc
19:16:25 <Milosch> applix data is clunky to say the least ;)
19:16:30 <Milosch> imho
19:17:14 <bergie> Ok.
19:17:36 <bergie> But now I think it starts to be the time to close this meeting...
19:17:40 <Milosch> right
19:17:42 <Milosch> sorry...
19:17:49 <Milosch> was mowinfg lawn ;)
19:18:07 <Milosch> s/nfg/ng
19:18:07 <bergie> Thanks to everyone for attending! Lets continue the discussion in the Midgard mailing list.
19:18:24 <jpa> bye!
19:18:29 <Milosch> thanks
19:18:43 <hukka> OK, bergie promised to take the IRC log and edit it to a more readable report of the meeting.
19:18:45 <bergie> I'll post this log soon...
19:19:01 <hukka> Till next time, bye!
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